Dun, Dun, Dun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pinecove]

It doesn't imply that they want to revive Ganondorf. Considering that they were trying to resurrect the Daimaou, I'd say it's quite clear they intended on rezzing Ganon.

Oh the Jap one doesn't go on about Ganondorf like the english? My appologies. Still seems like they didn't get Ganondorf though even if they wanted Ganon's body...

Currently now, though, that doesn't work, as TWW DESTROYED that seal.

Not saying I disagree with you right now as I believe FSA creates a second seal, but just for the good old debate...prove it.

Edit:

Where does your number 2 count for today? Because your leaving out WW and TP altogether, whichever side of the timeline we are talking about here. I can tell you that neither would work, because on the AT, Ganon escapes only once, and that is told in WW's BS, and on the CT he isn't sealed at all.

Um I thought we were arguing the original 5 games...

Anyway, I'm not sure where your going with that. Then and now, the Seal War says Ganon went in, wished on the Triforce, and was sealed. I've given evidence that the story is still the same today. OoT is not the SW anymore. Even if we were talking like it was 1998, your number 2 has no evidence. That is speculation. VC's description of LoZ says that Ganon has escaped the Dark World, but that doesn't automatically connect it to ALttP or the SW. There is also no evidence for a new Ganondorf being born. FSA somewhat implies it, but its never been stated anywhere and someone could just as well say that it has never happened. Your number 5 doesn't make much sense because your acting like the Seal on the Dark World is not a seal at all. If it is "sealed", nothing comes in and nothing goes out. That doesn't mean that Ganon can mysteriously escape without finding a way around the seal. And even if he did find some other way out, and LoZ took place before ALttP, then why would he need Agahnim to get him back out? Why wouldn't he just use whatever means he did before to escape? See the problem with that?

Ganondorf "rediscovered" the Sacred Realm because at the time, no one knew where it was. During OoT, people knew where it was. So prior to ALttP, generations before, people knew where the SR was and how to get to it (certain people). By the time of the SW, everyone had forgotten how to get there. Ganondorf was the one to rediscover an entrance. That is what that whole thing means. He found it, went in, wished on the Triforce, evil creatures started coming out, so it was sealed up. Ganon couldn't find his way out so he got sealed in there. Then we come to ALttP.

That is pretty clearly what the games, even today, describe, based on my in-game evidence, descriptions, and quotes.

We're misunderstanding eachother here.

Do you want my theory as it stands NOW or in 1998?

[MrMosley]

Originally Posted by Pinecove

Not saying I disagree with you right now as I believe FSA creates a second seal, but just for the good old debate...prove it.

I'm gonna let Sign get to that, but I'd like to point something out here.

With what we have seen of all the games so far, there have been multiple seals... You have the sealing of Ganondorf in OoT, where Ganondorf was sealed away from the AT ending of Link defeating him to WW's BS... The sealing of Ganon in FSA, which showed Ganon being sealed within the Four Sword... and the sealing of Ganondorf/Ganon during the Seal War, which tells us that Ganondorf rediscovered the Sacred Realm/Golden Land, as well as the Triforce, and upon wishing on it transformed the SR into the Dark World, and himself into Ganon, and was then sealed inside. All three are separate as of today's evidence.

Now, I'd like to know... Where do you even place FSA on your timeline, Pinecove? If you've posted it, I can't say that I remember exactly what it was. Its seeming like to me that you have most of your games on the AT. If so, does that mean you place the SW on the AT as well?

[Pinecove]

With what we have seen of all the games so far, there have been multiple seals... You have the sealing of Ganondorf in OoT, where Ganondorf was sealed away from the AT ending of Link defeating him to WW's BS... The sealing of Ganon in FSA, which showed Ganon being sealed within the Four Sword... and the sealing of Ganondorf/Ganon during the Seal War, which tells us that Ganondorf rediscovered the Sacred Realm/Golden Land, as well as the Triforce, and upon wishing on it transformed the SR into the Dark World, and himself into Ganon, and was then sealed inside. All three are separate as of today's evidence.

Now, I'd like to know... Where do you even place FSA on your timeline, Pinecove? If you've posted it, I can't say that I remember exactly what it was. Its seeming like to me that you have most of your games on the AT. If so, does that mean you place the SW on the AT as well?

My timeline is most likely bound to change somewhat when we get even more info on ST but currently it is this:

OoT-TWW/PH-ST-LoZ/AoL-OoS/OoA-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA
OoT/MM-TP

SW works as this:

-OoT happens. That's the original seal.
-TWW happens: the seal is broken and OoT's seal war arc is completed.
-thousands of years later FSA Ganondorf is born.

Before I continue I want to say that I believe the DW of FSA to be the DW/SR of ALttP.

-Ganondorf is sealed in the FS which is in the SR.
-ALttP happens. We know what happens here.

The backstory mentioned in ALttP is the more recent war (FSA) along with a few people mixing OoT into it. I'm not sure why people think I'm so pro OoT SW, I'm really not.

If the MGW (Moon gate world) of FSA isn't the SW, then I'll have to rethink a few things on the matter.

[Hayzer]

Originally Posted by Pinecove

My timeline is most likely bound to change somewhat when we get even more info on ST but currently it is this:

OoT-TWW/PH-ST-LoZ/AoL-OoS/OoA-TMC-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA
OoT/MM-TP

I agree with you to a certain extent. As a theorist, I can usually agree with a basic gist of most timelines. However, I'm a CT placer, and I usually go both ways regarding the OO and MO. While I like the idea of leaving the CT as a timeline that is opened at its base, I don't believe it's the case. I can agree with LoZ/AoL--OoX--TMC--FS/FSA--ALttP/LA (as you have it), but I can also agree with TMC--FS/FSA--ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL--OoX.

SW works as this:

-OoT happens. That's the original seal.
-TWW happens: the seal is broken and OoT's seal war arc is completed.
-thousands of years later FSA Ganondorf is born.

I'd like to point out that the SW doesn't really fit in either order, whether it's the MO or the OO. As far as I'm concerned, if FSA isn't the SW, the timeline has a big plothole in it.

Before I continue I want to say that I believe the DW of FSA to be the DW/SR of ALttP.

Yeah, I can see that. I think I believe that too, but of course, I'd need to do more research on it to make a good inference on it.

-Ganondorf is sealed in the FS which is in the SR.
-ALttP happens. We know what happens here.

The backstory mentioned in ALttP is the more recent war (FSA) along with a few people mixing OoT into it. I'm not sure why people think I'm so pro OoT SW, I'm really not.

OoT was intended to be the SW, but of course was retconned by WW, so I agree with you there, however, there are a number of differences between the Four Sword War and the SW.

If the MGW (Moon gate world) of FSA isn't the SW, then I'll have to rethink a few things on the matter.

Now I really wish I'd have kept that game.

Enlighten me on what the MGW is.

[Pinecove]

I agree with you to a certain extent. As a theorist, I can usually agree with a basic gist of most timelines. However, I'm a CT placer, and I usually go both ways regarding the OO and MO. While I like the idea of leaving the CT as a timeline that is opened at its base, I don't believe it's the case. I can agree with LoZ/AoL--OoX--TMC--FS/FSA--ALttP/LA (as you have it), but I can also agree with TMC--FS/FSA--ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL--OoX.

Alright sure I think that placement works better on a CT though as supposed to LoZ-OoX-TMC which seems to work better on an AT placement.

I'd like to point out that the SW doesn't really fit in either order, whether it's the MO or the OO. As far as I'm concerned, if FSA isn't the SW, the timeline has a big plothole in it.

Well FSA-ALttP needs speculation no matter how you look at it so FSA obviosly isn't the entire SW.

Yeah, I can see that. I think I believe that too, but of course, I'd need to do more research on it to make a good inference on it.

It's been debated to hell on ZU and ZI.

OoT was intended to be the SW, but of course was retconned by WW, so I agree with you there, however, there are a number of differences between the Four Sword War and the SW.

Not retconned. The intent changed. Retcon is a word only used when something is defied by another game making it not Canon.

And yes, as I've said earlier FSA-ALttP requires speculation no matter what.

Enlighten me on what the MGW is.

Moon Gate World.

It's the term I use to describe the DW in FSA.

[Sign of Justice]

Not retconned. The intent changed. Retcon is a word only used when something is defied by another game making it not Canon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon "Retroactive continuity (often shortened to retcon) is the deliberate changing of previously established facts in a work of serial fiction.[1] Retconning may be carried out for a variety of reasons, such as to accommodate sequels or further derivative works in the same series, to reintroduce popular characters, to make a reboot of an old series more relevant to modern audiences, or to simplify an excessively complex continuity structure."

It was retconned. No matter what. A change in the way it works is, by definition, a retcon.

And yes, as I've said earlier FSA-ALttP requires speculation no matter what.

I gotta say, River Zora's timeline is really, really nice in this regard.

The SW can just be Ganon's backstory for LttP, then FSA can set up LoZ on the other timeline.

Alright sure I think that placement works better on a CT though as supposed to LoZ-OoX-TMC which seems to work better on an AT placement.

If you put LoZ-OoX after TMC-FS/FSA wouldn't that be almost River Zora's timeline?

You get the nice actual sense of TP-LttP, while not having FSA to come and **** it up, and have an explanation for LoZ Ganon.

I mean I can't deny the intent for FSA-LttP, but I also can't deny that River Zora's timeline is by far one of the most consistent and sensical.

And, imo, OoT=SW requires far more speculation and ignoring of implications than OoT=/=SW.

I mean for your theory to work, the Hyrule mentioned in the fifth line of the GBA LttP manual must be a COMPLETELY different Hyrule than the identically named Hyrule thousands of years after the former Hyrule got destroyed mentioned the the following line, the sixth line.

It's rather ridiculous, imo.

[Viral]

And, imo, OoT=SW requires far more speculation and ignoring of implications than OoT=/=SW.

I mean for your theory to work, the Hyrule mentioned in the fifth line of the GBA LttP manual must be a COMPLETELY different Hyrule than the identically named Hyrule thousands of years after the former Hyrule got destroyed mentioned the the following line, the sixth line.

It's rather ridiculous, imo.

I think its ridiculous to use 2 lines from the GBA manual about the state of Hyrule as one of the main points against OoT = SW, seeing as Hyrule could have changed (despite the unlikelihood that it did) during that time and not ruined the intent of the manual anyway. =)

[Sign of Justice]

^The state of the same Hyrule changing between the two lines is fine.

Hyrule being completely different in two consecutive lines without anything implying it (actually the entire story progression implys the opposite, and so does the intent of the only time OoT=SW was confirmed) is just plain ridiculous.

With that logic I could **** over any common-place theory.

Here's a theory! Actually it's even less ridiculous, as there are even more lines between the lines I'm going to quote, so there's more time for a new Hyrule to appear...

From the Japanese FSA opening. Line 6 "The wind demon Gufuu resurrected overcoming the Four Sword's seal, and kidnapped the princess of the country of Hyrule, Princess Zelda."
Line 7 "Princess Zelda's childhood friend, the boy Link, borrowed the mysterious power of the Four Sword, and at the end of a furious battle, he succeeded in sealing Gufuu away once again."
Line 8 "And so, peace was restored to Hyrule once again, or so everyone thought. However………"

The Hyrule mentioned in line 6 and 8 are the same. Except the "However" is based upon the new Hyrule thousands of years later.

And the Link (same name, but CLEARLY different people) is different from the one in FSA.

This is because of the 2002 quote about FS being the first game in the series, which OBVIOUSLY renders ALL new intent completely and utterly unimportant and of course changes the implications of the text.

Your theory is based on a 1998 quote, and says that that particular intent is kept the same, while everything else related to that story must be changed to keep that theory true.

Your theory says that the Hyrule mentioned in the fifth line of the GBA manual is different from the Hyrule mentioned in the sixth line of the GBA manual, and the rest of the game.

Your theory says that the Hylians, and their language, went extinct in TWW, came back in New Hyrule, and went extinct again, along with all of their relics, legends, and again, language.

My theory is based on a 2002 quote, and says that that particular intent is kept the same, while everything related to that intent in FSA must clearly be different because of the previously made FS quote.

My theory states that the Hyrule (and Link) mentioned in the sixth line of the FSA intro is different than the Hyrule in the rest of the game, but that the "However" is based on the peace beind disturbed in the new Hyrule thousands of years later identical to the old, and that the Link in the game is different.

My theory says that Vaati was sealed in the Old Hyrule mentioned in first-half-way-through the 8th line of the FSA intro, then disturbs the peace in a new Hyrule completely unrelated, yet ironically identical, to the old one.

You know what's sad? Mine makes just as much sense as yours, and is just as evidenced.

The seal, which is the ONLY important thing in the SW if the GBA manual is canon, is DESTROYED in TWW according your theory.

So for your theory to be true, the SW mentioned in the SW has to be completely unrelated and unimportant to the game, as the evil mentioned in the SW (because they took out the word Ganon to clearly make OoT=SW make more sense) is destroyed later, and the Hyrule mentioned in the SW is destroyed.

If everything that happened in the SW is destroyed and gone and unimportant by the time of the actual game, what the hell is the point in actually MENTIONING the SW at all?




No offense to you, Viral (or Pinecove and Erimgard) as I respect you greatly as a theoroist and think that most of your theories are believable and evidenced. But, imo, this theory is absolute fanfic.

You can choose to believe it. But if it's a choice between making up fanfic and believing in something that makes no logical sense at all, or believing that a story is simply screwed over and there is no point fretting over it when concerning the official developer intended timeline, I'll ALWAYS choose the latter.

[Pinecove]

It was retconned. No matter what. A change in the way it works is, by definition, a retcon.

Really?

...well I guess that solves that.

The SW can just be Ganon's backstory for LttP, then FSA can set up LoZ on the other timeline.

Ah but how do you set up ALttP Ganon from TP?

@Your giant *** post: Do you even know what my timeline is at the moment?

[Sign of Justice]

Ah but how do you set up ALttP Ganon from TP?

What do you mean?

TP happens, then a while later the SW happens, then LttP happens.

A new Ganondorf touches the Triforce, becomes Ganon, SW happens, LttP happens.

It's a really nice theory, imo, I just don't think I can disregard the intent for FSA-LttP.

@Your giant *** post: Do you even know what my timeline is at the moment?

TWW/PH-LoZ/AoL-OoX-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA, I assumed?

If it's not... what the hell is your timeline (if you have one) lol?

[Smertios]

SoJ, I'm having a little bit of trouble locating any mentions of Hyrule in the 5th and 6th lines of the GBA manual. I suppose you are referring to the following, though:

"The Sages succeeded and brought peace again to Hyrule.
However, strange things have been happening in Hyrule since the appearance of Agahnim."

You are taking that quote out of context. Hyrule was also supposed to be the name of the world since LoZ, remember? "A small kingdom in the land of Hyrule"

The SNES manual has some more serious contradictions to OoT though...

[Pinecove]

TWW/PH-LoZ/AoL-OoX-TMC-FS/FSA-LttP/LA, I assumed?

If it's not... what the hell is your timeline (if you have one) lol?

.....yeah no.

That ship has sailed.

TMC-OoT-TWW/PH-ST
TMC-OoT/MM-TP-FS/FSA-ALttP/LA
(LoZ/AoL-OoX = no idea)

That's probably what my timeline will end up looking like, but then again, it still has the possibility to change.

[Sign of Justice]

SoJ, I'm having a little bit of trouble locating any mentions of Hyrule in the 5th and 6th lines of the GBA manual. I suppose you are referring to the following, though:

Yeah that's the one.

You are taking that quote out of context. Hyrule was also supposed to be the name of the world since LoZ, remember? "A small kingdom in the land of Hyrule"

The world isn't called Hyrule, it's called Earth.

According to Makar in TWW, anyway.

Nothing implies that the whole world is called Hyrule. Hyrule is just a large land.

The SNES manual has some more serious contradictions to OoT though...

Those direct contradictions don't really matter, imo, as we know they were dismissed in 1998.

That ship has sailed.

Huh. Mind if I ask what made you change your mind?

That's probably what my timeline will end up looking like, but then again, it still has the possibility to change.

That's the exact same thing I've been contemplating.

Maybe with TMC right after TP, or something, but pretty much the same thing.

It could really easily change for me, though.

[Megamannt125]

This thread is still going on?
Well, i'd just like to point out that if FSA isn't the SW, it doesn't mean there is a plothole, just that the SW happens before ALTTP and after FSA after Ganon has broken himself from the Four Sword, it's quite simple really.

[Sign of Justice]

^Just so ya know, LttP says that Ganondorf the theif discovered the SR, but couldn't get out.

There's a plothole in the SW no matter what. But the SWs placements AMOUNT of plotholes (and severity of plotholes) is different with each placement